Well, its offensive. We had an expression here, "Dig where you stand." DESTINY HARRIS: Oh my goodness. JAD: We ended up talking to the guy who did the work. Yeah. And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. JAD: And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. That's a lot of people. JAD: Even if it helps, it's horrifying. BARBARA HARRIS: After I've gotten to know so many of the women. Is that too old?" JAD: Or does it get passed on such a deep level that doesn't even require teaching? It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. At the Vivarium, as the name suggests, they have live animals. ROBERT: They could eat twice, three times as much. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. PAT: Filled with dozens of letters from women that she's paid. PAT: When you first hear about this, what goes through your mind? Radiolab is on YouTube! ROBERT: According to Darwin, life and changes are ruled by chance. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. ROBERT: Although, you know, sometimes that your grandfather's suffering helps you. They willed the neck to get longer, the muscles to get bigger. And the incredible thing is, those marks stick around. You dont really say it to yourself that way, but yeah. I just didnt think. SAM KEAN: And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. Yes. PAT: Because the truth is, you have no idea how these kids are going to turn out. I just got custody of my eight-year-old son. They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! Higher frequencies of heart attacks. PAT: And even though they look basically nothing alike. Can you say oh my goodness? SAM KEAN: Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. SAM KEAN: It seemed to have been passed down for multiple generations. But with the midwife toad, the female Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? JAD: To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". SAM KEAN: That was the implication, except Kammerer tried to defend himself by saying CARL ZIMMER: "Do you think I'm a Dummkopf, or an idiot, because that's what I would have to be if I left a forgery with ink standing around openly in the laboratory where so many of my enemies would have entry?". You're slippery, partner's slippery. Yeah. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It says "registrera", register. Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. JAD: Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: So, we have our rats in the lab and JAD: They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". What you see in the records, is that one year 100 liters. Where we sought, they will find. DESTINY HARRIS: You missed it. Suddenly you're marked. And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. She is nine. CARL ZIMMER: He was revealing it with experiments. ROBERT: What a name, you've got to like this guy. Can you say oh my goodness? I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. JAD: Because while you might have a lot of influence, you know, genetically speaking, over your kids and their kids, you don't seem to have a lot of control. So that was just funny to me. It all came down to this jar with his toad in it. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Who, together, pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]. CARL ZIMMER: But but theres like some hope here because JAD: Okay, all right, this is interesting. Because the truth is, you have no idea how these kids are going to turn out. And so, they bring MICHAEL MEANEY: A lot of friends to the party. PAT: This, of course, is Destiny. It might be a mixture. It's a very different kind of front line, where urgent work means moving slow, and time is marked out in tiny pre-planned steps. Filled with dozens of letters from women that she's paid. This is what's called the slow growth period. She's somewhere, but it's not good from what we've heard. Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? I think what's weird here is that is that we started trying to make a difference in our children and now we're surprise attacked by our grandparents. JAD: So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. [laughs] Can you say, "Never, ever?" Then 275 words will cost you $ 10, while 3 hours will cost you $ 50. She was totally an oops kid. I should add too. If you were a boy in verkalix between the ages of 9 and 12 years old, that's the window, 9 to 12, you're a boy, and then we have one of those terribly rough winters, and you're eating much less than normal. I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. ", And I called my husband again at work and said, "They want to know if we want to take the baby." PAT: Nobody's arguing that women should do drugs when they're pregnant. Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. And I was a waitress, I worked for IHOP for over 30 years. JAD: His reputation was that he could get inside the mind of, say, a salamander and know just what it wanted to eat. He is passionate about scholarly writing, World History, and Political sciences. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. SAM KEAN: Except he had one. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its Our staff includes Alan Horn, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters With help from Matt Kielty, Chris [unintelligible 01:04:17], Special thanks to Martin [unintelligible 01:04:21], Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. We ended up talking to the guy who did the work. It seemed to have been passed down for multiple generations. ROBERT: Just for those years. Look, in the end, what do I know? [laughs[ Exactly. Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. Three of them ended up in other foster homes and seem to have done pretty well, but one of them DESTINY HARRIS: Okay, well of them, don't really know what happened to her. JAD: It makes a kind of common sense, really. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. She and I snuck away from the children into her office. And she's a complete nut. SAM KEAN: I should add too. So we did stop. Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. You're finishing college, right? All these chemicals racing by crashing into it, sticking, and one of the bits that gets covered up is that little bit that makes the proteins that create a maternal instinct. OLOV BYGREN: Well, the DNA, the RNA, micro-RNAs, histone. And um PAT: Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. I think that's where Lamarck's ideas can be woven in and make some sense. ROBERT: And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. Thank you so much for your interest in Radiolab. It goes back to the 1800s. Radio Lab: Into the Brain of a Liar March 6, 2008 We all lie once a day or so, according to most studies. PAT: That's really impressive. And she's a complete nut. That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. Environmental Biology Radiolab - Inheritance Due to Haiku by Monday March 3rd Name: Dmitry Matveev Date: Including a particular amphibian that plays a very big part in this story. SAM KEAN: What's happening during this time is that you're setting aside the stock of cells that you're going to draw on in the future to make sperm cells. She's somewhere, but it's not good from what we've heard. ROBERT: Thats what Darwin says, you cant. Like, mine are bigger, you know." In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara? JAD: So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. SAM KEAN: Really slowly, gradually, achingly slowly. I didn't see them as people. All jokes aside. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? JAD: Now, according to Carl, your genes are still fixed. JAD: How do these simple little traits get passed forward? DESTINY HARRIS: My situation turned out positive. JEAN KEAN: My name is Jean Kean. It does, it does make kind of a folk sense. Actually, the idea itself is pretty old. Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. The team that creates each episode, including hosts Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, are master storytellers. That tongue is doing something to the DNA. That's how I've always looked at it. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Cancer. Baby, be careful. He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: There's a normal distribution, right? KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Heart disease. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? I have to be creative.". That was nice. And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". I mean, they didn't have porridge. BARBARA HARRIS: "She's born and tested positive for PCP crack and heroin." CARL ZIMMER: And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. And I didn't find a single case of someone saying that they regretted what they've done. LATIF: Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. You are not God. Well, yep, that is so true. SAM KEAN: Well, he thought it might have been an assistant trying to frame him because he was Jewish. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. Well think about it, this is nature and nurture slamming into each other. SAM KEAN: You got to help boost if you had a starving grandfather. [chuckles]. PAT: Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. Who are they? PAT: Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. Well, so here's the thing. We actually sent our friend, Pejk Malinovski, to the archives in Stockholm to check it out. Push yourself and you got it.". And so, you could only see one nuptial pad, and it all comes down to thisand all of that was just about to fall apart. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]. What does that mean, he was an idiot? JAD: But were gonna play you stories where JAD: This is Radiolab. You picked him up right from the hospital? If you start smoking when you're 10, 11 something like that, you end up having children with more problems. BARBARA HARRIS: Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her? CARL ZIMMER: Yeah. The neural chemical signal that gets activated during licking, is serotonin. But according to Kammerer, shortly after these toads got into the water, they did begin to evolve fast. You know, just take a little peek for themselves, and every time SAM KEAN: Kammerer said no, they were his specimens. That you can, somehow, by just being nice to them, reading them stories, or whatever, that you can somehow break them free of all that. CARL ZIMMER: But there were a lot of skeptics. What do you mean? ], I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. Yeah, it was a very attractive theory to them in Moscow. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. Like have you ever had one of those moments where you suddenly are your dad and it catches you off guard? The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. ROBERT: So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? ROBERT: Because there is more data, more information about the people of verkalix, going farther back into the past than you can find almost anywhere else on Earth. And that could have very easily have been one of us. Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. So, in the end, where do you come down on this? Well, he thought it might have been an assistant trying to frame him because he was Jewish. But at that point just two of the six boys were living at home, Brian and Rodney. And right now, I'm student teaching. JAD: So I guess you could say to yourself, "Seven out of eight of these kids did all right?". PAT: I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. Knock it right off the DNA. They suddenly had to get by on a tiny fraction of the food that they were used to. What do I know? What they decided to do first was to try to figure out which rat was which, which meant, interestingly, counting all the legs. Twitter: @wnycradiolab Language: English Contact: WNYC Radio 160 Varick St. New York, NY 10013 (646) 829-4000 Website: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/ Email: radiolab@wnyc.org Episodes Golden Goose 2/17/2023 More DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. JAD: What's he talking about? [foreign language]. And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. And if you haven't, you can choose to have an IUD, or an implant put in which will last for several years. Inheritance, what you can move on to the next generation and what you can't. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. JAD: I mean, it's pretty common but like, here's a for instance, my dad from my entire life had this thing where if someone was whistling, he would like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. I think all parents do this, is that you slip into this Lamarckian delusion that What you do with your kids can somehow rewrite all of that. JAD: If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. JAD: I think all parents do this, is that you slip into this Lamarckian delusion that JAD: What you do with your kids can somehow rewrite all of that. But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. They present previous theories on evolution and then present the currently accepted Darwinian Theory of Evolution. JAD: But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. If you've already had a kid, you can be sterilized. Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. I mean, when you think of Kammerer, there was a report in science outlining a theory about how Kammerer's toads got these characteristics that invoked these epigenetic inheritance and imprinted genes and it made it plausible. Radiolab is a radio program broadcast on public radio stations in the United States, and a podcast available internationally, both produced by WNYC.Hosted by Latif Nasser and Lulu Miller, each episode focuses on a topic of a scientific and philosophical nature, through stories, interviews, and thought experiments.. Radiolab's broadcast edition airs as an hour-long program each week while the . We went to the foster home and went in. PAT: Lynn has become one of Barbara's fiercest critics. Because we had already had to upgrade from a car to a van, from a condo to a home. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You would be licking them quite a lot. SAM KEAN: The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. This week The Science Show introduces Radiolab from WNYC in New York City. The results are obvious to you. ROBERT: Is that what you're saying? JAD: I tell you what I'm going to do though. Life is hard.". You can do this. They lived longer lives, something like 30 years on average. ROBERT: But, this hour were gonna fight this sort of sad sack feeling of inevitability and impotence. Yeah, the social worker called and told me the mother had given birth. Here, Kammerer's was saying, "You can do this even on a physical level.". By all accounts a pretty good-looking guy. [1] Radiolab was founded by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich in 2002. It takes a while. In my naive mind, I didn't have a clue what a big deal this was. What does it look like? And these effects, in fact, were so strong that you could trace it to the grandfather. PEJK MALINOVSKI: He was an idiot. In just two generations, these toads seem to have done something that should have taken, I don't know, 50, 100 generations? It's against the rules. She'll be two in January. I wouldn't want to put it up to chance, because what kind of life is that? JAD: Because here's the thing, the churches up in verkalix kept incredibly detailed records. ROBERT: And those lucky ones, according to Darwin's theory, they would have had to have been born with some random mutation in their genes SAM KEAN: That gave them an advantage in this situation. [laughs]. When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. She was thinking BARBARA HARRIS: "Everybody's motivated by money., BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control? PAT: But were getting ahead of ourselves here. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It's not very politically correct, huh? Visit our website. JAD: In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. One-fourth? Also, thanks to Carl Zimmer whose latest is. I could have turned out like some of the other kids. That's it. Because we had already had to upgrade from a car to a van, from a condo to a home. CARL ZIMMER: You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. More information about Sloan at. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. This is Radiolab. I just have to read this to you. JAD: And I know I cant change those genes. Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? I said, "No, no, that's okay." PAT: Just a little. ROBERT: Meaning that they had less incidence of heart disease? SAM KEAN: In a little community called verkalix. I mean, I'm married to a Black man. You're eight, sorry. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. JAD: Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. This was a really radical place at the time because you have to remember that people studying animals up till now, they were basically studying preserved specimens, and so on. We'll just be honest. Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. JAD: So heres the backstory. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: I feel that they should all be sterilized. LYNN PALTROW: Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. But if you've got a mom who licks you. So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. That doesn't matter. JAD: Still, that's a burden that, he's carrying a big burden there. Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. ROBERT: That's Sam Kean again. We spay them. Were just talking about toad, I thought. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. But it failed. That's a lot of people. PAT: Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara BARBARA HARRIS: That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. PAT: If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. LATIF: And as of 11:01 a.m. on Tuesday, when were recording this, we have not broken the show. The results make it probable that our descendants will learn more quickly what we know well, will execute more easily what we have accomplished with great effort, will be able to withstand what injured us almost to the point of death.