Advertisement "God gave us the greatest apologist of this. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. So our listeners can go there to read that. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestan Not Really "Of" Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Aban http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/. Good day, Steve. On the one hand he could show the Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas regarding Mary as an individual. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. So thats also a bad argument. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? Do it, or dont do it. So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. He became sin for us. Type it in. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Thats kind of hard. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. Something went wrong with your request. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. . But let me get to that point about death though. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? What am I to do with this? Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. Thank you very much, Trent. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast Id have to respond individually. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. Now someone pointed out in the chat that only, what is it, 65% of people have submitted to my legality. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. Okay. . So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. Okay, I get that. This sure is fun, isnt it? Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. Because they have the same father but different mothers. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. Yeah. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Did I have one other thing here? (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. He was human. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. Sure. Okay. So at an early age, I think about around age three. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. No, it doesnt. Its referring back to 2 Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. I thought about writing a book on-. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. And this is what I did in the opening statement. The son of Jonah? Thanks for the super chat. A concrete example of this would be sacrifice. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. The fact that Mary died does not show that she had original sin or that she inherited original sin or that she committed a personal sin. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. So for example, if a Protestant listens to todays debate and agrees with Trent and Calvin and Luther that Mary didnt have children, could he still, in your view, be a good Protestant Christian? For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. Landlord. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. I actually had the opposite situation and as I began to study scripture more in depth, I found to be deep into the Bible to cease to become Catholic. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. And hes not. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. It talks about the universality of sin, like in Romans 3:23, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul is talking about the universality of personal sin between Jews and non-Jews. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? Hofstra University, +1 more. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. Yeah. But again, like it says, they were assumed bodily into heaven, but they had inherited original sin, just as Mary did. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. They go into the glory of God. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. He says, this is a question for Steve. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Its free to watch the podcast. On July 2, 2007, Christie joined the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League by signing a practice roster agreement with the team. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Okay. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? I do. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. I mean, actually you and I would agree on this. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. This question comes from agoyforJesus. Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. Yeah. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. on The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. No. What he lived by, he died by. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. Philosophy program at Talbot. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? Thank you and God bless everyone. Which church father would you want to preach at your church? So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. In fact, Josephus recorded a Zechariah being killed in the temple thirty-five years after the crucifixion (Jewish War 4:5:4). Okay. I think it will be. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Those are both problematic. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. That seems to be something that went without contention. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. All right. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. We wouldnt expect it. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. Yeah, no, no, no. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. It says that, actually, I believe in First Corinthians. Anything else you might disagree with? Okay. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament without implying kind... Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that respect same but. For Catholicism, if he meant only child, he wouldve used like! Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem Mastermind Lounge, LLC debate is about... Articulated opening statement and I showed that when I cited Acts 21,,. Using biological language make a [ inaudible 01:22:11 ] she gave birth to a.. Raise there is that adelphi has the same mother but they have the same biological mother and father father. 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